Grand Wangoneer revisit

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 09/04/2020 at 12:18 • Filed to: 5 minute photoshop

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This is my attempt to make it appear more grand and less wang

The front isn’t the bit that bothers me, its this view, where it looks like a Land R over D efender 5 and a H onda P ilot in the worst ways. That upkick in the rear glass is so wrong. The rear has no dimension to it. The pillars are aweful and look less styled and more “well, we gotta have pillars, might as well use these”. The roof floating effect isn’t working, is it supposed to look like the roof was sawed off but a convertible shop in Murmansk?

In my opinion (and there are many going around) the thing that made the GW work was the glass area and the roofline.

The roof feels magically suspended over a wheelhouse of glass. It’ s delicate and elegant.

While I agree you can’t get away with that in the modern world, there are tricks to attempt it. Keep the window rake steep, the roofline sharp, mask the width of the pillar behind glass or through painted out black sections and why oh why did they think a floating black roof was a good idea I have no idea.

So I axed the upkick, slanted the rear glass more for depth, thinned out the pillars as best I could with painting, brought some rake back to the A-pillar, and color-coordinated the roof.

Its not great, and I’m no designer, but at least it looks less like a Pil DiscTahoe and more like something that was designed to invoke a past.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:38

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I feel like in car design, when it comes to “required” elements (in relation to safety or other regulations) you can either try and hide it, or you can own it. There are plenty examples of companies doing it well and also horribly.

Here, FCA (or whatever they’re called now) decided to own the thick pillars. I don’t hate it, but can fully understand why people would. When you own something, it is inherently bold, which will almost always be polarizing.

HammerheadFistpunch > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:39

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Side rant. One of the things I think make this thing look particularly dumb blobby is the fact that its NOT an off-roader according to my strict definitions of hub line.

The old GW has free air between the hub center line and the body, which is the bare minimum for what I consider a stock vehicle meant for off-road use (minus any add ons like sidesteps that aren’t actual body)

The new one has miles of body BELOW the hub center line without sidesteps. Even in air sprung high mode it might barely reach center line. As a result it has a LOT of body side, and then a little more painted black as a visual trick.

HammerheadFistpunch > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 09/04/2020 at 12:42

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I hate it, because not only did they decide not to hide it, they rounded out all the corners with a high radius to make them appear even wider than they needed and contrary to the iconic style they are trying to evoke.  The radius is what gives it that last gen Tahoe look.  It looks dated 2 years before it even goes on sale.

fintail > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:43

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Not bad. I generally loathe and roll my eyes at upkicks in windows/beltlines. Such a cheap lazy shallow way to desperately add “character” (talking to you, Toyolex).

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:44

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I’m curious as to what the regular, non-Grand one will look like when they decide to show us. A two-row full size SUV on the Ram 1500s frame could be... really great.

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 09/04/2020 at 12:46

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I figure it will be Escalade to tahoe or navigator to expedition.  i.e. just a less nice blob.  I have very low expectations right now.

sn4cktimes > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:47

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The windows are definitely a fail. I think what you did would be one step in a more nostalgic direction. I think the snout is another fail. But is yet again not really something that can be replicated in  modern design requirements.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:48

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Reminds me of the side of the  3rd gen 2007 version

sn4cktimes > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:50

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I’ve never outright had “this” hub-centreline thought when judging off-roadingness of a vehicle before.... But having you point it out makes me realize this is one thing I’ve always  used subconsciously   as judgement material. It’s kinda like an animal with long legs vs short legs and how close the belly hangs to the ground.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 12:53

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Fair point. I’m assuming you’re referring to this:

HammerheadFistpunch > sn4cktimes 09/04/2020 at 12:53

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I don’t mind the front AS much, its this view thats damn near offensive.

HammerheadFistpunch > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 09/04/2020 at 12:55

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Thats the hector. 

HammerheadFistpunch > sn4cktimes 09/04/2020 at 12:55

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Consciously apply it and you will find almost without fail its accurate.

and 100 more > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:00

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Really, tho, this is going to be an off-roader in the way a Range Rover is... not at all. If the GW starts at six figures, like some have suggested, the most offroading these will see is some guys in Dubai tearing up the dunes over the weekend , and that’s about it. Jeep is not JEEP anymore, and they only sell the Wrangler because it basically prints money for the brand. Otherwise, the fact that you can sorta “offroad” any of the other current Jeep models is merely paying lip-service to their “heritage”.

HammerheadFistpunch > and 100 more 09/04/2020 at 13:04

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Here’s the thing though, you don’t buy a Rolex Submariner because you plan to do heliox diving, you buy one because it was designed to do it.

The Range rover is still designed to be very impressive off-road even though it will never be used that way. People buy them because they know that and because it looks great to wear. It’ s not enough to have one at this level.

and 100 more > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:14

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That’s a great point, and I f ail to see who Jeep is making this for. I really feel like this is the next Hummer H2.

HammerheadFistpunch > and 100 more 09/04/2020 at 13:21

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oh man, the reveal was the wankiest wank that ever wanked.

“Grand wagoneer buyers would rather go golfing or cruising on their sailboat...”

EVEN if they are right (and I don’t know if they are) you don’t tell people your product is a result of market research and then spell out the research. You craft your messaging in the language of your target audience you don’t just let it spill out of you.

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:25

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I don’t remember a time when I’ve been more disappointed in a new car release, not even the Blazer

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:28

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:’-(

HammerheadFistpunch > dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford 09/04/2020 at 13:29

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Of the Classic SUV rebirth letdowns of the last few years, for me it goes something like:

1. This

2. Blazer

3. Defender

....

Bronco

The blazer I could excuse because they weren’t trying to hide the fact they were just using a name to sell more of a popular segment. The defender I don’t love but at least it still has it where it counts and looks pretty good.

This though, high expectations/Huge letdown.

T he Bronco? T hey pretty much nailed it.

adamftw > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 09/04/2020 at 13:29

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The even worse part about this gen is that the windows are EVEN SMALLER inside. You lose like 6" all around the entire back hatch, and 4" on the rear 3/4s.

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 09/04/2020 at 13:32

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Deep down I always knew it wasn’t going to be an off-roader and kinda knew it would always be more Range Rover.  Though I had hopes that being a Jeep it would at least be, well, a Jeep.  This is just FCA’s Escalade/Tahoe.

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:33

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I’m a fan of Defender because it’s coming to the US. If it wasn’t I’d be calling it the sellout that it is. I really really like the Bronco, it looks fantastic and has all the features you’d want. So much better than a Wrangler 

Textured Soy Protein > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:34

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The problem is the body color B- and C-pillars. Working on a ‘shoop to mitigate this. 

HammerheadFistpunch > dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford 09/04/2020 at 13:35

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They went straight for the jugular with the Bronco and it shows. Its funny, when decision makers listen to industry leaders they create a product that industry wants. Apparently  Ford sought out off-road design legends to help with the Bronco and...gasp...actually heard what they had to say.  The Bronco’s success will be a stark contrast to the FJ Cruisers sad decline out of the market and a case study in actually HEARING your customers.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:37

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Yeaup. And they don’t need to give it class-leading off road tech, because no one will use it and these things won’t make it to 80 k for a 2nd/3rd owner to buy it and use it off road like people are doing with 10 year old RRs.

HammerheadFistpunch > Textured Soy Protein 09/04/2020 at 13:38

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Yeah, The pillars are a big part of the problem and I tried to deal with them as much as was practical. The truth is you can’t just get rid of them, though you can make it appear as though you have (a-la range rover). I went for a middle ground.

As I was working on it I noticed the other issues though. Mainly that the smooth rounded A-pillar looked really out of place against the smooth angular rear, and the rear had no definition which was a defining trait of the original. If you look at the original, the funky D pillar is designed to flow with the sedan like butt giving it a long and lean appearance the new one is severely lacking due to its chunkiness and lack of definition in the rear.

TLDR: it also needs junk in the trunk.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:40

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Um, that’s a Suburban. Just saying...

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 09/04/2020 at 13:41

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Its conspicuous consumption that is meant to be disposable. That’ s deeply insulting to the cult of the wagoneer.  You aren’t wrong, and thats sad.

HammerheadFistpunch > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 09/04/2020 at 13:41

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I can only do so much with suburban like source material.  

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:42

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Exactly. Even the Bronco Sport seems like it’d be decent and that’s coming from someone who doesn’t like crossovers. The options, colors, styling, everything. Knocked it out of the park. I’m not a Ford guy, but if they’re reliable I could see myself getting one someday.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 13:44

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I’m really curious how many they will sell, and how limited production will be.

Discerning > dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford 09/04/2020 at 13:44

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I was supremely disappointed by the Cherokee's return. I suppose this is just a Jeep thing.

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > Discerning 09/04/2020 at 13:46

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Even the Cherokee when specced right can be somewhat capable off road. This is just a fat pig. Even Lincoln, traditionally the laughing stock of the industry, is doing better than them.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 09/04/2020 at 13:54

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Yeah it’s the jelly bean smooth Burban with some changes here and there. 

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 15:10

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What it really needs is a complete redesign, which I might have to do later.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/04/2020 at 15:13

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You aren’t wrong. In the reveal Ralph Giles points out how much people love the original, citing companies that restore them and then points to several iconic feature that make people love them... all while standing in front of a vehicle that has ZERO obvious cues from the original.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 15:36

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I mean starting with the roof.

It’s the D-Pillar that makes it truly iconic. One could easily increase the size of every pillar while maintaining the proportions and angles of the whole roof. Then the flat belt line. Yes sills are lower than the OG, but that’s OK for this thing’s mission.   The forward canted grille using the same angle of the rear. The fender bugles are the only thing on the new one that are 75% there.

The front is a whole nother story

REMOVE THE SQUINTY EYES. Enlarg e the grille vertically and the headlights to match. Put metal bumpers on it to stand out from the crowd of soccermom trucksters. This is a truck based vehicle after all.

Then we get to the rear.

First thing needed is a split tailgate to completely go after the E uropean crowd. Get rid of the monobrow light, which, hot take, look horrible on SUV’s. Just a pair of upright rectangles back there pushed all the way to the edges and the CHML can go at the top of the like it currently is.

Simple, old school but modern is all everyone is asking for, yet Jeep went fuck it and copy pasted Compass parts all over a generic box of meh and nothing looks like it was designed by the same person.

wafflesnfalafel > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 15:39

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Interesting - I don’t mind the little up kick styling on the rear side windows, but just changing the roof color to body color makes a big difference for me. It’s kinda too bad they couldn’t figure out a way to do some classic homage rear styling - I think that would have gone a long way to make it more “ grand wagoneery” But maybe this truly is more of a concept and they can still tweak some styling queues.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/04/2020 at 15:44

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did you see my redesign effort? I took some effort to give the rear and D pillar a little more love

I reversed the rake on the pilar, but it still has the general look, I also increased the rake in of the rear window so it doesn’t look so...dull.

EDIT: Im an idiot, I thought this comment was on another post.

and 100 more > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 15:55

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Would’ ve been better to just drive it up the stairs and thru the glass window into the lobby full of reporters.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 18:38

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Fixing the rear quarter window helps sooooo much. The whole design language is very level, flat, parallel. So why have the random upkick? 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 18:40

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I still stand with my theory that this siding started as a new Chrysler and at some point the marketing guys said “It’ll sell better as a Jeep!” So they slapped a 7 slot grill on it and called to a Wagoneer 

HammerheadFistpunch > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 09/04/2020 at 18:41

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Well, maybe as a RAM, since it was always on the RAM chassis and Chrysler is just an empty husk.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 18:46

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But Ram is a truck brand. That would be so confusing to have a Ram SUV and a Dodge SUV. Not that any automotive company cares about t heir branding or nomenclature being confusing anymore

As far as Chrysler being an empty husk, maybe this was meant to breath life into it. Instead of just being a mini van and a 15 year old sedan 

ranwhenparked > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/04/2020 at 19:51

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God, this really makes me appreciate what a great era the 1960s was for car design. Every angle just looks so right, every crease, every line, every proportion.

BigBlock440 > HammerheadFistpunch 09/04/2020 at 20:44

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I find it hilarious how Ralph went on about all the things people liked about the old one, when the new one doesn’t have any of that.

“The simplicity, honesty of the shapes, long-lasting design, shoulder-line that goes undisturbed front-to-back, the sense of adventure, etc.”

Wh y call out the horizontal line when the new one clearly doesn’t have it?